About Us
Haley Wilson: When and where were you born? Dr. John Cross: OK. I was born in Okemah, Oklahoma in 1939. October 24th. Okemah is the home of Woody Guthrie. Haley Wilson: Oh, OK. And what is your current address and phone number? Dr. John Cross: My current address is uh ... my home address is [Gives Address], Stillwater, Oklahoma 74074. Haley Wilson: Thank you. Do you have any photos or documents related to Westark that you might allow us to copy at a future time? Dr. John Cross: I believe so. I'd have to go back and go through my ... We have some pictures at the house. Let me go through that. I'll put that down and I'll go through there and find out ... see if I have some old pictures. Haley Wilson: OK. Is there anyone else that you feel we should contact for an interview? Dr. John Cross: Let's see. I roomed when I was there with a guy down on I think... right off of the street that comes in.. the highway that angles off there. But I can't remember. I can't remember their names now. Haley Wilson: [Laughter] It's been a little while. Dr. John Cross: Yes. Thirty years. Almost thirty-five ... something like that. Haley Wilson: All right. Dr. Cross, could you tell me what years you were a student, at, I believe it was, Fort Smith Junior College then? Dr. John Cross: Well, it ... I believe it had been renamed Westark Junior College. Let's see. I was a student there from January of 1960 to ... the spring semester of 1962. Haley Wilson: Could you just tell me a little bit about your personal history at the college, like what made you choose to attend Westark? Dr. John Cross: OK. You mean the history of my coming there .. . the reason why I came? Haley Wilson: Yes. Dr. John Cross: OK. Well, I originally came ... I came to Westark because I had a ... I boxed for the Boys Club, and the Boys Club was paying my tuition and books. Back in the spring semester of 1960, I transferred from Central State University in Oklahoma to Westark Community College for the next two years. Basically, I boxed for the Boys Club, and they paid my tuition. Haley Wilson: I see. So Westark didn't actually have a boxing team itself? Dr. John Cross: No, this was uh primarily with the Boys ... this was solely with the Boys Club. Westark had all of the other sports— basketball, baseball, and so forth. Haley Wilson: Did you participate in any sports teams there at Westark? Dr. John Cross: No. I didn't ... participate in any other sports. Haley Wilson: OK. Well, could me tell me a little bit about your boxing? Dr. John Cross: OK. Well, I started out boxing in a program in Oklahoma. We fought a few times in Fort Smith. I fought in the Arkansas Golden Gloves. I believe at the time that... I think I held the title for Golden Gloves in 1960, '61, and '62 if I remember right. Haley Wilson: Since you were here on scholarship from Oklahoma, did you live in a dorm on campus? Dr. John Cross: No, At the time I came, there was a ... I can't remember the street... but it was... there was a rooming house that I stayed with about four other guys who were on basketball scholarships. I can't remember. Jim Jay ... No, he wasn't. [pause] Some of the other guys were on baseball or basketball scholarships. I can't remember their names now. But it was a house. Can you help me? You know as you come in from Arkansas ... into Arkansas, you go down Broadway and as you get to the church at the end of Broadway at the street that angles off to the left there. What is that? Haley Wilson: You know what, I could not tell you. I have not lived here very long myself. [Laughter] Dr. John Cross: OK. I can't remember the street... the name of the street there. But there was a small restaurant there that was named the White Spot, and that's where most of us ate breakfast...ate our meals. We lived in a rooming house probably about five blocks east of the White Spot. Haley Wilson: OK. So you weren't real far from the campus? Dr. John Cross: Oh, it was... yeah ... let's see... probably about all the way across town. Haley Wilson: Oh, was it really? Dr. John Cross: It would be maybe two or three miles. I would think at least something like that. Haley Wilson: OK. Do you remember what the campus was like then? I know it was much smaller than it is today. Dr. John Cross: OK. At that time, they had the Jeffrey Boys Club that was there where now the basketball and the field house are. That was the Jeffrey Boys Club. Most of that area along there was Jeffrey Boys Club. I believe there was kind of a student union that was at the bottom of the hill. Then they had the administration building at the top of the hill. A library [unintelligible] was just down from the Union. Just east of the administration building was the science building. I think there were about four buildings there when I was there. Haley Wilson: Now while you were here, they built a new library, the Holt Building. Is that right? I believe that was in '61. Dr. John Cross: I guess it was. [Pause] I guess it was. I don't remember. I couldn't say. Haley Wilson: OK. Well, uh could you tell me about your association with the Boys Club? Did you work for them as well as ...box for them? Dr. John Cross: No. Really what I did was I worked in the afternoons. I'd go to classes in the morning, and then I worked for ... I worked at a cleaning shop. I pressed clothes. I pressed clothes in the afternoon. I went to class in the morning. I worked from about one' clock till five. Then I'd go to the Boys Club and work out for boxing. I spent most of my time in classes, in the library, or working. Haley Wilson: OK. How did you choose sociology as your major? Dr. John Cross: I chose sociology primarily because at the time, I had a biology professor by the name of Wayne Anthony, who incidentally was kind of an ex professional fighter. He, in one of the biology classes that I was in, ... he made the statement that sociology was probably one of the most difficult courses that you can take. And I thought ... oh, what is sociology? When I graduated from Westark, I got an A. A. in 1962. When I graduated from Westark, and I came to Oklahoma State University, I decided I would look into sociology. So I think ... that was how I got into it. Haley Wilson: So it was Mr. Anthony who influenced... Dr. John Cross: Yeah, it was Professor Anthony that gave me the clue. I often wondered myself why he made that statement. At that time that he made that statement, something was occurring in Arkansas in which one of the public schools (an elementary school) had banned a book because it had a black and white rabbit on it. We kind of got into a discussion of that, and I think... I think probably what he meant after all these years was that sociology will kind of challenge your view of things. We have traditional standard ways of looking at issues. And he... I believe that's probably what he meant by that. You begin to look at and analyze issues ... things like that. I believe that's what he meant after I've thought about it. Haley Wilson: Do you remember who some of your other teachers were? Did you have favorites? Dr. John Cross: Well, I think I liked Professor Blakely real well. I also had Professor Butterfield for a humanities course. I enjoyed her course. But there was also at that time a coach who was eventually president of the university. I had thought of his name the other day. Haley Wilson: I am trying to think who would have been there. Let's see. Dr. John Cross: Probably a couple of presidents ago. Haley Wilson: Vines? Or Breedlove? Dr. John Cross: He was the coach of the team before Vines. He became president after Vines. Haley Wilson: Breedlove was the president after Vines. Dr. John Cross: Yeah! Shelby Breedlove. Haley Wilson: Yes. Dr. John Cross: Shelby Breedlove was the basketball coach. Haley Wilson: Oh, I didn't know that. Dr. John Cross: Oh, yeah! He was the basketball coach while I was there, and I had some courses under him. I liked him, too. But I guess overall, ... Professor Anthony was probably the one that I remember most. Haley Wilson: Since you were such an outstanding athlete, do you feel that your academic interests were cultivated at Westark... that you were recognized as a student as well as an athlete? Dr. John Cross: Well, I probably ... I don't really. You mean did the students recognize kinda what I had done? Haley Wilson: Oh, well, I was thinking even more from the standpoint of the teacher. Did they see your interest and your potential and try to direct that like it appears Professor Anthony did? Dr. John Cross: Well, I ... well, again, I can't ... I guess they did what most university faculty do. I don't know at the time that anybody expected that I was going in the direction that I finally ended up. I probably at the time didn't have any idea myself because after I finished my bachelor's degree, I in fact went back to Fort Smith and was the director of the Jeffrey Boys Club for three years from 1964-1967. Then I decided that I would go back after 1967 for a graduate degree. When I did that, I kind of got off into the university setting. Dr. John Cross: There were some things that intervened in my career and my education. Haley Wilson: I see. Dr. John Cross: When I was in high school, I was in the band ... the high school band. When Shelby Breedlove found that out, he talked me into playing the baritone in kind of a pep band for the ... for the college. [Laughter] I had a variety of experiences. Haley Wilson: I guess so. Well, I know from researching that time period there at the college, it was a difficult time for the college in many ways financially and politically. It was in a private college stage before it became a public institution. Haley Wilson: Did you have any negative impressions of that as a student? Were you aware of that? Dr. John Cross: No I wasn't aware of that at all. I wasn't aware ... In fact, I wasn't aware that it was a private school. I always thought it was probably a public institution. Haley Wilson: Uh huh. I see. Well, where did you go on to complete your degree? Dr. John Cross: Well, when I left Westark, I came to Oklahoma State University. I graduated with a bachelor's in sociology in 1964. From 1964-67, I was the Director of the Jeffrey Boys Club. And then after that, I decided to go back to graduate school. And I completed my master's degree in sociology at the University of Tulsa. Haley Wilson: Um ... Dr. John Cross: Then I taught for a year at Northeastern State University in Tahlequah. From that... after that year, I decided to go on to finish up my Ph.D. and was accepted at the University of Missouri in Columbia. Then I finished up my Ph.D. up there. From there, I moved on to teach at the University of Nebraska, the State University of New York, and Minot State University in North Dakota. Then I came to Oklahoma State University in 1985. That's where I've been ever since. Haley Wilson: Do you think that ... in the many years that you've been teaching, have you seen a difference in the interests and goals of your students over the course of the years? Dr. John Cross: Oh. I'm sure there have been... since the time that I was a student. I believe there probably have been some differences but I don't know that. Probably the major thing that I see is in the sixties when I was a college student; there was probably a lot more student activism than I have seen probably in the students today. I think that's in part a product of the times. In the 1960s, college students across the country were involved in activism or were activists on social issues. I think that's probably the major difference. Haley Wilson: Did you participate in some of the activities yourself as a student? Was that a climate at Westark? Dr. John Cross: Well, no there wasn't. I don't remember a whole lot of it at Westark, partly because we didn't have a whole lot of time to participate in activist issues. After I got into graduate work, I became involved in ...participated in some things, but still I had a lot of work to do as a graduate student, so I didn't have a whole lot of time at that point. I had some extra time, but I was mostly trying to get finished with my course work and to finish up my degree. Haley Wilson: I can imagine! Have you come in contact with any Westark students in any of the colleges where you taught? Dr. John Cross: No, I can't say. Well, there was a very good friend of mine who at that time.... Her name is Sharon Reynolds. She's married now. I ran into her in Oklahoma City about 1985. And I guess I had ... [unintelligible] Well, I ran into one person that was from Fort Smith, but he was at the University of Oklahoma. He grew up in Fort Smith. His name is Hal Motta. But I don't think he went to Fort Smith Junior College. I don't know where he went to. We were just talking the other day. He mentioned that he was from Fort Smith. I said well I lived here in Fort Smith for a number of years. We got to talking and found out he lived in Fort Smith during the early sixties the same time that I was there. We didn't know each other then. I think that he was in high school at the time, and I was the director of the Boys Club. Haley Wilson: Have you ever thought about conducting a sociological study of Westark or a two-year school? Dr. John Cross: Uh, well, I guess that issue has never kind of presented itself. I've never thought about it. Most of my research is in the area of sociological law and American Indian law. That is where I've kind of ... that was my area of specialty ... while I was a graduate student. I did my dissertation in the area of law and life. I never tried to tie it together with Westark or a two- year school. Haley Wilson: Now you're currently, I believe I read, the editor for... Dr. John Cross: I'm the editor of Free Inquiry. I'm the editor ... I've been the editor since 1992, something like three or four years. We have a journal of the Oklahoma Sociological Association, and we... it's what they call a refereed journal where individuals send in articles. And what I do is send them out to people to review the articles. They will evaluate the articles and request that the authors' revise their articles so that they will be in shape to be published ... things like that. It's a national journal, an international journal. We have people send in articles from all over the world. It's also subscribed to by libraries and individuals in other countries ...outside the United States. Haley Wilson: Well, what impact if any, do you feel that attendance at Westark has had on your life and your academic career? Dr. John Cross: Well, I think Westark gave me a good foundation to be able to go on in college. I had the uh ... psychology and so forth. Yet, at the time I was there, there wasn't any sociology course. As far as a general education, I think that Westark served me well. It prepared me to do college level work. Haley Wilson: Well, is there anything else that you would like to add to our discussion that we haven't covered or people you knew here ... anything significant about your experience here? Dr. John Cross: I can't... I would ... I have good memories of Westark. Good memories of Fort Smith. Had I not gone back to graduate school, I probably would have stayed in Boys Club work, and I probably would have stayed in Fort Smith. But I went back to graduate school. That kind of changed everything. It gave me... put me on a different route. I have good memories of Fort Smith, the people there that I associated with. Good memories of people like Bill Malone, who was the boxing coach and also the coach at Ramsey Junior High and the Boy's Club Director, Cliff [unintelligible]. Jerry ... He owned the [unintelligible] on Broadway... Jerry...[pause] He owned the grocery store on Broadway. I can't remember his name. Haley Wilson: It puts your memory on the spot. I don't go back that far. I can't help you with that. Dr. John Cross: I'll remember later. All of those people were ... All of those people I had contact with were good people. Haley Wilson: That's a nice compliment. I appreciate that. Well, I want to thank you, sir. If you have nothing more to add.... Dr. John Cross: I can't think of it right now, but [unintelligible] I'll look at my pictures and see if I can't pull some of them out. I think maybe the yearbooks have pictures. You have access to all of those yearbooks don't you? Haley Wilson: I believe that we do. I honestly don't know. I've been told that we're missing a few. I need to go through and get a list of those. If there are newspaper clippings or anything like that which might be used... Dr. John Cross: I'll go look and see what I have. I'll call you. Haley Wilson: OK. I do appreciate that very much. I want to thank you very much for your time, Dr. Cross. I have enjoyed speaking with you. Dr. John Cross: Well, thank you. I enjoyed being a participant. Haley Wilson: Well, I hope I'll get to meet you personally one of these days. Dr. John Cross: If I come to Fort Smith, I'll stop by the campus. In fact, I was just through about two or three months ago. That's when Bill told me about the history ... the oral history project. I have enjoyed participating in it. Haley Wilson: Well, good! We're glad you did. Well, thank you very much. Haley Wilson: I will let you get back to your busy schedule. Dr. John Cross: OK. Well, thanks then. Haley Wilson: Thank you, sir. Bye.
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